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1. Thanks for this fantastic stuff. this way of looking at consonants was taught to me by my sanskrit teacher. He was a clerk in ST and taught us kids just for fun. No wonder he knew a lot more than school appointed teachers.

   I will use this to teach marathi to my daughter who struggles with pronunciations.

   Comment by Dr. Bhooshan Shukla — January 19, 2010 #

2. Hi. Thanks for the nice article!

   As a matter of coincidence – just this Saturday, I was explaining the exact same theory to my wife, and I see a full-fledged article on that topic soon afterwards.

   Nice – I can simply refer people to this page whenever this is a topic of discussion!

   Comment by Ravindra — January 19, 2010 #

3. This seems to be DIY phonetics from ya onwards. If any of this was true, there would have been another column – one thing you can tell from ka thru ma is that those guys knew their sounds. ra is not retroflex (it is alveolar; the hindi d of ladka is retroflex) and va is not labial (it is labiodental). I’m not even sure if the difference between the two sha’s has not been lost to history.

   Comment by saurabh — January 21, 2010 #

4. @saurabh, I’m not really qualified to be able to debate the accuracy of what you are saying. But, if I understand you right, you’re saying that the table is accurate as far as क through म are concerned, but is inaccurate for य र ल व, श ष स ह. That might be. I’m not an expert, and I simply took this data from the wikipedia page, and prima facie, it seemed correct to me. On further digging, it appears that the data is taken from this paper, by Charles Wikner, who appears to be a scholar in these matters. I would be tempted to believe him, in absence of strong data to the contrary…

   For example, he does talk about व and points out that some traditions do pronounce it like the English ‘v’ (i.e. labiodental), but he makes a case that it is really supposed to be pronounced like the English ‘w’ (i.e. labial).

   Comment by navin — January 22, 2010 #

5. Navin, I’m not qualified either but from experience know that one needs to trust existing knowledge (in this case what people speak, especially if the people are *you*!) more than academic theory. Theory wants to be precise and categorized; in practice it aint so.

   Yes I was saying ka thru ma is accurate but ya onwards it’s dubious – I tend to believe more the ancients who gave us this order (I’m not quite sure if the arrangement is ancient but remember having read somewhere that it is), than a guy who probably didnt learn the sounds growing up. That is, adults *hear* sounds differently than babies, and his arrangement could reflect that.

   Regarding va, I know no Indian who pronounces it labially; it just sounds more like w because the constrictedness of v is absent in va (technically the only difference is that va is an approximant while v is a fricative). In fact, I know a few people who were taught to say w correctly in convent schools, and the only possible reason for that is that w is not va!

   That said, I havent read the paper; plan to some day. Thanks for your additional research.

   Comment by saurabh — January 23, 2010 #

6. Nice post buddy! People are forgetting about this Devanagari script. Once I was asked to write a name in Hindi on VISA form by my office travel desk lady. I asked her if she meant Devanagari to which she looked strangely at me and replied, ” I do’t know Devanagari. Pls write your name in Hindi”.

   Comment by Vega — January 29, 2010 #

7. Hi,

   Thanks for the great post. Can you please post some audio clips of ञ ङ श and ष. I’m still not sure how to pronounce them but would really like to know

   Comment by Kush — March 15, 2010 #

8. @Kush, I think listening to audio clips is not going to help you learn how to pronounce them. It’s very likely that if you were not taught this as a kid, then your ear+brain cannot really ‘hear’ the difference between these and other similar sounds.

   The way to learn to pronounce them is this:
   First say प फ ब भ म loudly. Notice how your lip and tongue position remains the same throughout, but notice that the passage of air through your throat and mouth is different in each case. Specifically note that in the case of म the sound is being created with a constriction at the base of the throat. Remember this. Now repeat this procedure with त थ द ध न. Once again, notice the same thing. Again, note how you make the sound न. And think of what is common between न and म. It’s the constriction of the throat while making the sound. This constriction of the throat is what is common to the entire last column. Remember this.

   Now say loudly, क ख ग घ. Note the position of the tongue and lips. Now here is the trick: Using the same tongue position as क ख ग घ, make the sound come out with a constricted throat, as in the case of न and म. This combination gives you the sound ङ. After a little practice, you’ll get it. Also remember, what we think of as the half ‘n’ sound in many words, is not really a half न, but is a half म, न, ङ, ञ, or ण depending upon what sound comes next. If the next sound is क ख ग घ, then the half ‘n’ is really a half ङ. For example when you’re saying ‘mangalam’, the ‘n’ sound is really a half ङ, and if you’re saying ‘mandal’ then the ‘n’ sound is a half ण.

   A similar analysis will help you figure out the other sounds (ञ श and ष). Again, note that whether a word uses श or ष often depends upon what the next sound is. षटकोन has a ष because the next sound is a ट, which is from the retroflex family, hence the sibilant used is also retroflex. My guess is that usually an ’sh’ sound uses श except if the next sound is a retroflex, in which case, a ष is used.

   (Note: a lot of the last two paragraphs is speculation on my part; better informed linguists please feel free to chip in with gyaan.)

   Comment by navin — March 15, 2010 #

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